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Author Topic:   Discharges
gritsngravy
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Posts: 61
Registered: Feb 2011

posted 05-09-2013 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gritsngravy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/blogs/green-south-florida/sfl-lake-okeechobee-water-draining-20130509,0,5771209.story

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Deadly Dave
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posted 05-10-2013 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadly Dave     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/blogs/green-south-florida/sfl-ease-extensions-for-big-sugar-20130208,0,5466547.story

While this an article that is several months old, it shows just how these organizations are.

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LetEmWork44
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posted 05-12-2013 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LetEmWork44     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave: Im not sure what you are insinuating by saying "shows how these organizations are"???

Personally I agree with the lawsuit, its idiocy to allow billion dollar corporations to continue to call the shots with our beloved state's environment. The amount of pollutants that come as a by-product is asinine and its only flushed into the Big O. It's destroying the Everglades. Then big sugar wants to try and force our hand into granting this lease extension by playing some bs STA card??? The STA's are valuable resources but they wouldnt be necessary if it wasnt for big sugar in the first place! Why on earth is it acceptable for them to "trade district lands"??


"The lease extensions are tied to deals for the South Florida Water Management District to buy 638 acres from Duda for $2 million and to trade 8,700 acres of district land for 2,000 acres owned by Florida Crystals."

What kind of bs trade is this????? Our 8,700 acres for your 2000 acres?? What an awesome deal Florida taxpayers are receiving there!!! That makes about as much sense as a football bat.

Read the book "The Swamp...The Everglades, Florida, and the Politics of Paradise" Its a brilliant read and pretty much sums up how big sugar, big developers, and money hungry politicians have been bending both my beloved Florida and its tax payers over time and time again while the average joes and yankee snowbirds sit idly by without a care in the world or any idea as to whats going on.

Sure they give us some valuable property to be used as an STA and we get another hunting location opened. But at what cost????? Only to continue destroying our state with their pollutants that will ultimately have to be cleaned up later using OUR $$$.... then we're back in the same position...struggling to battle the by product and fronting the bill for big sugars destruction. Meanwhile those scumbags get richer while our state's precious ecosystem plummets deeper into decline.

As a sportsman we all have first hand knowledge of what is going on in our state. From the loss of precious habitat, polluted waters, dried up lakes, to sinkholes plaguing the Tampa Bay area. If this type of crap doesnt ENRAGE us then your not a sportsman in my book and should hang up your waders and move to NYC. I side with the environmentalists and in today's Florida.....they are our greatest friend.

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LetEmWork44
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posted 05-12-2013 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LetEmWork44     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also, I dont think I need to address the incompetent mental midgets at the Army Corps of Engineers........the sooner theyre gone the better.

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binellishtr
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Registered: Dec 2002

posted 05-12-2013 03:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for binellishtr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
very true..

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N. Cook
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Posts: 477
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-12-2013 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for N. Cook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No one is more protective of the wetlands in Florida than I am....and I spend a lot of time on my "goal" to "cover as much of the original Everglades with 2 to 4 feet of water...I don't care whether you call it a WCA, STA, Reservoir, Impoundment, FEB or just swamp...Houses are not going to be built there!

However, some perspective needs to be considered.

First, the EAA is the EAA because 100 years ago our nation was an agricultural society and expanding crop growing areas was a national priority....the prairies were "busted", the Miss. and other rivers leveed to keep water out of the flood plains so farming could be done, etc......You cannot blame the Corps or even the society of the day for the national interest of the time.

Sugar cane and vegetable farming is exactly what the EAA was drained for....and those folks, large or small businesses, purchased the land and commenced to farm. Sugar was vastly expanded after the "loss" of Cuba, but even that was in the national interest of the day. This is the USA...you are able to be in business and make a profit and to lobby Tal. and DC for your profession...Free country.

Now....fast forward to the coming of the "environmental movement"...Belatedly, in the 1970's we found ourselves in a bad situation regarding the exploitation of our resources and the long process to redirect "national interests" began. A lot has been accomplished...and a lot needs to be done yet. The reversal will never take us back to buffalo on the prairies and an Everglades as large as before....but we can conserve and restore reasonable levels of the country's natural habitats.

Blaming the wheat farmers for busting the prairies or the sugar farmers for farming on land drained by the government for agriculture in what was at the time the National Interest...and for making profits, large or small, and lobbying to stay in business is wrong.

A fairly large portion of the Everglades will be put under water in time...but, it will happen with a lot of cooperation with all parties involved as the value of the muck lands lessens over the years....

The 30 year lease seems like a "give away" to the sugar companies and a bad deal for the taxpayer...until you know a few things about the situation....

First...none of that land is slated to be "restored" in the next 30 years and it will remain in sugar or other crops in any case...Therefore, getting some important land that is really needed for "restoration" NOW....basically free...is a "good deal" for the Restoration process.... and duck hunters! as well as those wanting as I do, to get all the land under water we can NOW.

The "deal" also was put into a bill this session in Tallahassee and it will go through in any case....

Now...regarding the USACE...Please note the "A" is for ARMY...The Corps only does what it is told to do by the politicians...and when the politicians tell the Corps to build a levee, or drain a swamp the "charge the machine guns" and do it....And when the politicians tell them to fill in a channel they only recently constructed...see the Kissimmee River project....the USACE "charges the machine guns" back out the other side of the hill and fills the ditch they just dug...

What people don't like about the Corps is they simply will "run over" anyone getting in the way of the "charge up the hill" they have been ordered to do....That is the military way. And, like any government body the bureaucracy is maddening...

But, if you don't like what the Corps is doing, or has done, direct your anger where it belongs...the President, Senate, and House of Representatives who gave them the orders at the time...

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Deadly Dave
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Posts: 133
Registered: Jul 2012

posted 05-13-2013 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadly Dave     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My aggravation with "These organizations" stems from the additional revenue spent fighting a lawsuit to move forward with the project.
I have read "The Swamp, and re-read it several times. I have worked on smaller scales restoration projects for almost a decade.
I am all for doing it right. I just get wound tight when the lawsuits fly and then those filling them won't bring a check book to the table to make ends meet. It seems easy for them to file suit to stop this, pause that or halt this. Do you ever read of them covering costs to ensure progression, providing services pro-bono. How about standing up for the Sports men and women in this country,backing us to hunt, fish and enter into public owned lands. Just where do they stand on these issues.
Please don't blow smoke at me and try to convince my pants are on fire when they aren't. Big Corporations are going to do pretty much as they please and can afford to do. No different than anybody us in business that has the opportunity. I am happy that land has been aquired and this multi decade old restoration project might just get moving once again.

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Deadly Dave
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posted 05-13-2013 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Deadly Dave     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You might want to read about the self imposed restrictions that Big Sugar has put in place to lower the nutirent loading. I am willing to bet that each one of those homes that line the Glades is practing BMPs and not causing problems either. Hah.

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duckmanjr
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Registered: Feb 2010

posted 05-13-2013 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckmanjr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well...In reality...Big agri-business *SHOULD HAVE BEEN REQUIRED TO CLEAN UP THEIR OWN MESS!!!!!* DEP and EPA could have held their feet to the fire....but didn't.
The polluters should have been the ones monitored and required to clean any discharged water to the Glades...on their own property....not selling property to the WMD so that a multi million dollar filter marsh can be constructed on the taxpayers dime...to clean their dirty water.

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LetEmWork44
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Posts: 165
Registered: Dec 2010

posted 05-13-2013 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LetEmWork44     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by duckmanjr:
Well...In reality...Big agri-business *SHOULD HAVE BEEN REQUIRED TO CLEAN UP THEIR OWN MESS!!!!!* DEP and EPA could have held their feet to the fire....but didn't.
The polluters should have been the ones monitored and required to clean any discharged water to the Glades...on their own property....not selling property to the WMD so that a multi million dollar filter marsh can be constructed on the taxpayers dime...to clean their dirty water.

NAILED IT!!!

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N. Cook
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posted 05-13-2013 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for N. Cook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not trying to defend the big sugar people..they do a good job of that themselves...and they definitely should do more regarding "paying" for their pollution...As should all the polluters, including urban as well as agriculture...

But...

Actually he sugar companies do "pay", and have been for years, a special fee levied on them in the EAA of $25 per acre per year...plus they are bound to use BMP and have reduced their level of Phosporous run off by more than the legal requirement placed on them by the FDEP...They actually get Lake O water that is high in P and reduce the amount of P put on their fields to account for the "pollution" coming out of the Lake...Fertilizer is an expense item to a farmer...unlike the home owner who almost always over applies P, the farmer tries to use as little as possible on the crop..

The giant problem...water coming into Lake O from the north...mostly dairies and cattle pastures...is the dirtiest water of all.....resulting in a very dirty Lake O sending very dirty water south to the EAA...

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duckmanjr
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posted 05-13-2013 05:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckmanjr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by N. Cook:

Actually he sugar companies do "pay", and have been for years, a special fee levied on them in the EAA of $25 per acre per year.....


Well...that *sounds* very nice....until you "look deeper" and find that the US Gov't subsidizes sugar....Yep...*WE* pay THEM on top of the price they get...

As far as the $25 charge....how many "acre feet" of water do they use (that is our drinking water) per year..per acre?
Yeah, I am very sure we are paying more than 25 bucks to clean up the amount of acre feet of water used.

Bottom line...the "deep well connected pockets" like the Fanjules and Dudas will keep getting richer and richer...all while Floridas lands and waters suffer....

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N. Cook
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posted 05-14-2013 10:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for N. Cook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have dealings with the large and small sugar companies at the SFWMD WRAC meetings...and the work with the Rivers Coalition, Everglades Foundation, Marshall Foundation on the "opposite" side of the equation...

While on the WRAC Lake Okeechobee Cmte., during the days of the storms when we thought we had "lost the lake" a lot of technical stuff from all parties involved, the SFWMD, USACE, FDEP and the farmers...and ranchers and dairies north of the Lake...and, even more important the urban polluters... was presented at the monthly meetings...

Facts are facts...water goes into the Lake six times faster than it can be removed (all gates and pumps working 24/7)...There is an annual excess of water in the many billions of gallons that is sent to the ocean...The EAA also has too much water most of the time and it is often sent by canals out to sea, as often the environmental rules, ie the 10 ppb P and the endangered Cape Sable Seaside Sparrow prevent sending water south towards Florida Bay...

The largest amount of pollution comes down the Kissimmee...not off the EAA sugar fields. Often the water in the canals in the EAA is cleaner than Lake O water.

I do not want to appear as an "apologist" for big sugar....they do carry a big stick and use it to protect their needed water supply and financial interests...but, they are both large and small businesses with a number of small farmers, no different from corn or cotton farmers, with a government "floor" in pricing of their commodity.

The problem with "water supply" comes around with the droughts...and the cities versus the agriculture versus the environment battles are fierce...all three segments are dedicated to their constituents and the USACE has rules that "divide" the water up... rules resulting from legal decisions the USACE must follow....

It is definitely like "making sausage" but despite some very tough dry spells no city has gone without water, no large crops failures have occurred, and the Lake, WCAs and all the marshes have survived...even helped by some needed burning...

The main point to remember....there is much more water than needed in the system over most years...the distribution of supply during the year can be a problem because of the "wet/dry seasons"....

A lot of the "restoration" projects have a "water storage" element to help store and meter the water over a year (and through a drought) to keep all those three elements "happy"...urban drinking water, agriculture and the environmental needs of the marshes...and Everglades National Park.

There are a number of entities that share the blame for the pollution...and all should be required to "contain" their pollution...but, without addressing the urban and other sources and not just one element or another alone, very little progress will be made.

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novaalex
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Registered: Mar 2013

posted 05-14-2013 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for novaalex     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by N. Cook:
!

after the "loss" of Cuba, but even that was in the national interest of the day.


Correction! Newton, Cuba wasnt lost it was traded. The United States traded Cuba for Haiti and in return they lost Miami!

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Phil E
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Registered: Aug 2002

posted 05-14-2013 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Phil E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by duckmanjr:

Bottom line...the "deep well connected pockets" like the Fanjules and Dudas will keep getting richer and richer..


I agree Jr. I think all the duck club members should boycott the Duda leases. Tell them to take their dove leases and shove them.

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LetEmWork44
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Posts: 165
Registered: Dec 2010

posted 05-14-2013 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LetEmWork44     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by duckmanjr:
Well...that *sounds* very nice....until you "look deeper" and find that the US Gov't subsidizes sugar....Yep...*WE* pay THEM on top of the price they get...

As far as the $25 charge....how many "acre feet" of water do they use (that is our drinking water) per year..per acre?
Yeah, I am very sure we are paying more than 25 bucks to clean up the amount of acre feet of water used.

Bottom line...the "deep well connected pockets" like the Fanjules and Dudas will keep getting richer and richer...all while Floridas lands and waters suffer....


Normally I dont always agree with you Joe but you NAILED IT AGAIN!

No matter what pathetic excuse of a tax they pay it isnt a fraction of a percent of the amount they ought to contribute, there really isnt arguing that, but carry on if you feel necessary.

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duckmanjr
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posted 05-15-2013 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckmanjr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Phil E:
I agree Jr. I think all the duck club members should boycott the Duda leases. Tell them to take their dove leases and shove them.

People should spend their money how they wish Phil...

I am a pragmatist.
They only hunt that once a week...some of it during duck season or when I am out of state hunting ducks...and even if I made all 10 weekend hunts...at $550 that is $55 a hunt....to shoot 12 little song birds(they are classified songbirds in some states where they are not hunted)
At $55 a dz...that is almost $5 a bird....

I get mine on public land.....

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duckmanjr
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posted 05-15-2013 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckmanjr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LetEmWork44:
Normally I dont always agree with you Joe

You should NEVER agree with *me*....contact Huntmaster and see what you should be thinking. LOL!!

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Phil E
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posted 05-15-2013 04:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Phil E     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
People should spend their money how they wish. You of all people should know I'm all in on that. Don't you remember I pulled my sponsorship from UWF.

But like me some times you have to take a stand. So I'm saying if your going to throw them under the bus why support them? It's kinda like windmills.

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duckmanjr
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posted 05-15-2013 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckmanjr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't support them ....

I just don't tell others they shouldn't....people should use their own judgement.

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LetEmWork44
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posted 05-15-2013 11:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LetEmWork44     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by duckmanjr:
You should NEVER agree with *me*....contact Huntmaster and see what you should be thinking. LOL!!


LOL the only one I take advice from is QwackHead

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